Writers Need Religion Too

After my Religion and Art rant earlier in the week I have been coming across articles on the topic everywhere I look.

One report in the Time magazine on the controversial writer Salman Rushdie talks about the necessity of religion for writers, even atheist writers. Rushdie said “When I’m writing books, something weird happens; and the result is the books contain a large amount of what you could call supernaturalism. As a writer I find I need that to explain the world I’m writing about. As a person I don’t need it and as person I do. I would agree, that tension is irreconcilable. But it’s just there. It’s just so.”


“I think that a lot of us, whether we are religious or not.. there are no words to express some things except religious words. For instance, ‘soul.’ I don’t believe in an afterlife or heaven or hell, yet there isn’t a secular word for that feeling that we are not only flesh and blood. Whether you’re religious or not you may find yourself obliged to use language shaped by religion.” Read the rest of the Article at Times online.

Art critic for the Guardian Jonathan Jones says “Religion, in other words, is mixed up with magic, or to put it another way, the kinds of religion that nurture art tend to be. Catholic idolatry begets beauty. Protestantism does not.” Guardian

There’s an interesting discussion in the comments of the last post on Religion too.

About Dion

Australian artist and observer of things.. all kinds of things. I like a wide variety of art, from the weird and wonderful to the bold and beautiful.. and everything in between.


  1. Donald Frazell says:

    Yes, so much of our culture is based on believe in god, and in America, this is not a static, singular god, but thousands of ideas about what that means. The “Founding Fathers” were far from religious in how the far right sees it. They were rationalists, Episcopalians, Universalists, and Free Masons, hardly bible thumping types at all. They were seeking a higher god, here on earth, and so created a country based on growth and checks and ballances, to both curb our greed and madness, and extremism in all its forms. It has worked wonderfully.

    And also separation of church and state, keeping with Yeshuas words. Give unto Caesar what is Caesars, unto god what is gods. What that dividing line is has been up for debate, but civilly in our country, unlike elsewhere. And we now have literally thousands of ideas as to what god is, and separate churches to promote them.

    but our history and literature, and visual arts, are full of god imagery, things we grow up with, adn are ingrained in our emotions. Look at television. By far the best new show is TrueBlood, about vampires and other forms of spiritual, or spiritless, creatures. It strikes our base humanity, who we are, what it means to be human, through creative playing with our history. And its funny as hell, something Art never is, as it takes itself soooo damn seriously.

    But questions as to who we are and lifes meaning are intrinsic to mankind, to everyone but artistes now it seems. This is fundamental, and Arts true calling. Visualizing eternity, core emotional issues, passions, meaning, death, life, identity, purpose. All issues completely ignrored now by artistes, who have created a playground of overwrought irrelevancy, children at play, pretending to be important. But avoiding all important issues, eternal ones that shape how we see our selves, and so avoiding arts main responsibility. Its sole purpose.

    Art is just as responsible for the situation we find ourselves as bad business men adn greedy investors, who are our parents and clients. We perpetuated the self important obsession with individual self importance, and forgot to study mankind. Our history, our needs, our future, our past. US. Instead, it has been all about Me.

    Nothing is more basic than God. It has always been with us, in every culture, evolving, mutating, growing, but just looking into the nite sky, alone, silent, hwo can one not feel this? And how our ancestors evolved, and what we have forgotten as we sit stupidly in our heated studios before the TV or computer, we are too busy being busy, and now have no knowledge, curiosity, passion. It has been about wants and desires, not needs and responsibility.

    Art IS about God, or meaningless. And god is everywhere in all things, which is why a grouping of bottles painted over and over by Morandi, can have such profound passion and low simmering power. Unless one is cold to the soul. How a mountian painted over and over, broken into bits of color, becomes animated and alive, full of life, mystery, profound, in the hands of a priest, such as Cezanne. For he said, art is a priesthood. With it comes responsibility, sacrifice, intensity, purpose. Not the partying, self absorbed, whining, exhibitionist art scene we have today. The two could not be more different. And so art died. It is time for its rebirth, as the world needs it. Needs to find purpose, direction, passion, sacrifice, god.

    Forget all you have learned, all you have been told, all the thought patterns that you have been trained, like a poodle, to go after and pretend are true. Start anew, study who WE are, and God is inescapable. It is us.

    Art collegia Delenda Est

  2. This is ridiculous. The romans gods were fictional (just as the Abrahamic god is). If you are saying we can only produce great art and literature under the delusion of an invisible Sky Wizard then the burden of proof is on the claimant. 1)Prove god(s) exist. 2)Prove the claim above.
    3)Credulous Donald Frazell’s comments are full of logical fallacies.

  3. Donald Frazell says:

    And yours of childish stupidities.

    No one said you had to believe in any particular god to have god in your work, all artist do, only those too young or self absorbed dont. We are a result of thousands of years of human ingenuity and passions, to write them off as if you were superior only shows your insignificance. show somne respect, and perhaps you jsut might get some. God is part of humanity, and as artist, it is our job to explore this. As well as in being a decent human being.

    Ignorance is bliss, or so they say. I wouldnt know, I am a history major, ancient mediterranean, byzantine espcially, and an artist.

    Part of the problem is so few artistes have kids, too self involved to preocreate and actually nurture another human being. Nothing is more creative. And humbling, and tying one to humanities fate. These are our concerns, If you dont have them, art is not for you. Perhaps fashion designing, but knowledge is needed there also.

    And learn to read, comprehension at an all time low. I am not religious at all, and certainly dont believe in heaven or hell. Doesnt mean they dont exist, or something like them, but being human, how the hell would I know? Or care, its irrelevant to decent people. We do the right thing even if it harms us personally. And god has always been a part of human culture, to cut that aspect of us out, to not addres it at all, is the height of arrogance, and stupidity. Children.

  4. Claim:
    “Art IS about God, or meaningless.”
    What follows are non sequiturs and Ignoratio Elenchi (irrelevant conclusion).
    He uses every fallacy including argument from omniscience (e.g., All people believe in something. Everyone knows that.), appeal to faith: (e.g., if you have no faith, you cannot learn), circular logic, and appeals to ignorance.

    It comes down to empirical evidence versus faith. You believe because you want to believe but the gaps for any god to hide in is getting more minute by the day. It may may you feel better to believe something out there is watching over us, but that doesn’t make it true.

    Art is about mankind. It is the most human part of us. You don’t have to believe in gods, elves, sprites or ghosts to be a good artist or writer. I include writing as an art (and it’s definitely a craft).
    If you believe in deities -fine, but don’t assume art is only good if you believe in a god, and don’t make ludicrous pronouncements that are so easily proven false: “Nothing is more basic than God. Evidence? It has always been with us, in every culture, evolving, mutating, growing, but just looking into the nite sky, alone, silent, hwo can one not feel this? ” Um…Me.(and several other artists)

  5. And what does Donald have left? Ad Hominem attacks. Sad.

  6. The original artists were the priests of the community. In a way their was a separation of church and state for those ancient cave dwellers as the Shaman priest/priestess was self evident based on their talents to the group. The Chief or leader had a different role.

    Those original shaman (and there is not proof that these were only en) painted the rocks and caves, created the masks and costumes, healed the sick and spiritually led the group.

    In a small tribe or community, roles based on skills — performance and achievement is self evident.

    Our society is complex, so the greedy and power hungry can devise schemes to subvert the obvious and seize power, including that given to spiritual leaders.

    The Priestly class in the Bible were not the prophets and spiritual leaders originally. Later they usurped this position, and that continues to this day for most Jews and Christians, which basically means the Western World.
    I agree with Donald that the Founding Fathers were breaking away from the establishment religiously as well as politically.

    The idea of separation of church and state was not new but the way they, and subsequently we Americans applied it, was and remains so to this day.

    We need to take the pressure off of the young artists who are fresh out of school to delight and shock us with their creations.

    Developing spiritual depth and any wisdom takes time. Soul searching, finding one’s spiritual path, developing a personal relationship with The Divine are accomplishments of maturity, prophets and prophetesses not young warriors and young mothers. Although they could grow into it given some time.

    The anonymous poster speaks of rationality. What is rational about the Big Bang? Alternate universes? Even aspects of Quantum Mechanics and gravity we are asked to accept on faith.

    The debate about who or what is God, or the catch phrase I use of “The Divine” (so the reader can substitute the name or term that is best for them), is no longer just an American experience. We have spread this idea, along wit the ideal of tolerance. And one of the ways we have done this is through art and the places, such as museums that we show art.

    A place like the Metropolitan Museum of Art is a mighty and spiritual gathering place where peoples of all religions and paths gather to see the work of artists from most religions and paths since antiquity. Being visual, art translates into any language.

    This is a great topic. As a religious or spiritual artist and author, whose work can also be viewed as secular and science-based,, thanks again for it and the one on art and religion below.

    Judy Rey

  7. “Part of the problem is so few artistes have kids, too self involved to preocreate and actually nurture another human being.”

    I have two. I’ve been married to the same woman for 16 years.

    “And learn to read, comprehension at an all time low”
    May I suggest spellcheck and proofing? And at least I understand the concepts of logical fallacies.

    ” Doesnt mean they dont exist, or something like them, but being human, how the hell would I know? Or care, its irrelevant to decent people.”

    I have to admit I don’t comprehend this at all.

    I get the point Donald, but it isn’t necessary to contemplate life and death from a perspective of an epitomized god. You don’t even have to do the pseudo-spiritual crap.

    As for arrogance: “Ignorance is bliss, or so they say. I wouldnt know, I am a history major, ancient mediterranean, byzantine espcially, and an artist. “

    No, you’re a douche.

  8. “The anonymous poster speaks of rationality. What is rational about the Big Bang? Alternate universes? Even aspects of Quantum Mechanics and gravity we are asked to accept on faith.”

    Your ignorance of the way science works speaks volumes. Empirical data, scientific method: look them up. You’re spouting nonsense as if it all were just rote memorization. You can’t argue with your kind of “lack of knowledge”. Read Dawkin’s “The God Delusion”, it will give you another perspective you obviously lack. (Oh BTW, I’m a former Seminarian so yeah, I’ve studied religion)

  9. Donald Frazell says:

    And by the way, yes, the Big Bang theory IS irrational, Einsten said it couldnt be because it didnt make sense.

    Reason is just a tool, as is logic, to make sense of the Universe. They mean nothing in themseelvs, and always take an original thesis built of conjecture, or built up empirical knowledge, which also seldom makes rational sense.

    Everytime man thinks he has it solved, we fuck up. We are coming out of such a time. Man is limited, in ability to understand, and create. wE do what we can, and find purpose in what we do, or fall into chaos.

    Or we could just follow the great Anon. Oh, my bad, too weak to even post a name, Nevermind.

    We now know why you have failed at so many things, seminary, fatherhood, history, writing, editing, art. And a great many more things I am sure, all because you only beleive in yourself, The weakest belief of all.


  10. Donald Frazell says:

    Damn what happened to my long post tearing apart the cowardly anon into tiny lil bits of inert matter, all he believes in? I am not religious at all, dont find it necessary, but certainly do participate in the rest of mankind, and feel there are things beyond us. Even if false, that emotion exists. And an indespensible part of art, except to those who have no such feelings. And fail at seminaries, fatherhood, writing, editing(anal though he is), history, logic, science, damn, you got all the bases uncovered.

    Oh, I forgot failing at reading comprehension, that happens when you are too full of oneself. And a far greater artist and writer than such silly people as Salmon Rushdie.

    LOL! Arrogance can be quite funny, when not annoying. Right, Anon?

  11. Donald, If you have an MA, much less a PhD, I’ll eat my hat. Word Salad, that’s all you can write. Oh I imagine you see yourself to be The Emperor, but you are intellectually naked, and you’ve shown so in public.

  12. Donnie, you’re just making stuff up now.

  13. “Damn what happened to my long post tearing apart the cowardly anon into tiny lil bits of inert matter, all he believes in? I am not religious at all, dont find it necessary, but certainly do participate in the rest of mankind, and feel there are things beyond us. Even if false, that emotion exists. And an indespensible part of art, except to those who have no such feelings. And fail at seminaries, fatherhood, writing, editing(anal though he is), history, logic, science, damn, you got all the bases uncovered.

    Oh, I forgot failing at reading comprehension, that happens when you are too full of oneself. And a far greater artist and writer than such silly people as Salmon Rushdie.

    LOL! Arrogance can be quite funny, when not annoying. Right, Anon?”

    Peace Donald. You stated it much clearer so I could understand your intent. I’ll retract my former post (so I don’t have to eat my hat.) Peace.

  14. Donald Frazell says:

    DAMN?! Can you READ? NO way in hell would I waste money on a MFA o any of that art crap, its a waste of time, BA in History, and got into art becaues it ran in the family, and grew up in it. But always hated artistse,s and ignorant writer who are too cowardly to post a name.

    There is a name for that here in the LBC, beeeeatch!

    I posted truth, Einsten fought the idea of the big bang from its begginngs. Too bad you dont really know what you are talking about. Who is making stuff up here? i post my name and am easy to look up.

    myartspace.com donald frazell

    will give you a look.
    Your writing proves you lack of ability. its about passions and thoughts, not words, which are just symbols. You just dont understand them, or god. Thats YOUR problem, not humanities.

  15. ” Einsten fought the idea of the big bang from its begginngs.”
    Um Donald, modern Astronomy and Physics are a lot further along now. Stephen Hawking? Heard of him?
    The leaps and bounds in understanding in Biology, Astrophysics, Astronomy are staggering in just the last 10 years.
    I’m not married to ANY ideology and divorced from all dogma, and I never make things up (okay, rarely). You know nothing of my passion and least of all, my failures OR my successes.
    My reasons for not posting a name are my own. Posting a pseudonym is just as anonymous, so “anonymous” will do.

    Hubris -watch out or they’ll chain you to it. ;)

  16. Donald Frazell says:

    Then dont post if you cant give a name. Means you cant and wont back it up. I posted about Einstein because you went after the woman about rationality, Einstein was fairly rational, but science most certainly isnt.

    We adapt to nature, not it to us. We are feeble, small, insignificant, except to each other, and to this passion some of us have, anyway, to do more, to sacrifice, to build and grow upon the works of others before us. This is the range of emotions that seek god. It is answers we seek, and now we have evolved to know that good questions lad to even more, and better, questions, not final answers.

    This IS god. And the left has abandoned following this, and allowed to righwing to create the diffinition of god in our culture, VERY dangerous, as the left thinks they are all powerful and lolittle gods in themselves. VERY dangerous, and talk about hubris.

    Art always explores life and god, that sense of more, that we belong, that we have purpose. That IS art. Lay all the great art of civilization, and tribal cultures too. They all head in the same direction, god. What that god is changes, evolves, as do we. As our understanding grows, but the barbarism andfear always lurk just below the surface, chaos of mind, body and spirit is evil.

    god is in order, in structure, in flow and life. We see chaos, but that is our fault. There are always reasons, we either do not know yet, or cant see. Or understand. This is god, what we seek. It is always there, and msut be followed, adn nothing is more about god than art. Including religion, which is social structure and developed ways of maintaing society. Teh carrot and stick of heavena dn hell keep humanity in line. ancestor worship and leaving the endless loop of reincarnation into becoming a Buddha also, but all serve the same purpose, mans growth.

    Do not look downon religion, we would be in horrible shape, if we did not have it. It simply needs to keep evolving, and that IS arts responsibility as it took over from philospophy and theology in the Modern era. It is needed again, now. Ideologies are dead, feeble substitues for god, and need to stay that way. Science is a tool. A way to collect information and test it to seen how muhc is valid, but can nevere explain all. Especialy what is in mans heart, and would could be more important?


  17. Okay, obviously alcohol has entered the picture.
    ,” Einstein was fairly rational, but science most certainly isnt. “

    That is the most idiotic statement -ever. The second most idiotic statement is :
    “Ideologies are dead, feeble substitues for god,”

    Obviously you have no concept of what “ideology” means.
    Your photographs are nice Donald, but give up the rhetoric, you suck at it.

  18. Donald Frazell says:

    And you failed at theology, science, history, and god know what else beyond dispute. Oh yes, writing, a copy editor job awaits you. You just cant accept truth, it is seldom what we want to hear, and never what we expect to find.

  19. Donald Frazell says:

    All the schooling in the world, can not open a noncomprehending mind.

    Humanity has evolved, science and logic but tools, art but a prayer.

    Life has meaning, we are simply too small to understand. but we can feel it, and know when it is in the right direction, but never in our grasp.

    this is what history has taught us, and what art reveals. Art is a lie that reveals truth, a reflection of the world and man that allows us to examine it, and feel. Schools are grounds of stored knowledge, taught to an acceptable level of mediocrtiy. Art cannot be taught, but must be earned, god cannot be seen, but can be felt.

    You cant feel either, certainly cant see except what you wwatn to see. You are no scientist, low level one maybe, my family ash many. It is just one way to underrstanding. of the material world, where we live and die, and create.

    You jsut dont get any of it, I am sure another degree in some other field awaits you. Its OK, not many do, but most arent so arrogant about their ignorance.

  20. Donald Frazell says:

    Science is a way to find, test, and store empiracal date, Rational thought but a tool of man, limited to his capabilties, which are far from comprehsive. Andy decetn scientsit will tell you this. And why it can be so excting, it is far from inevitable, but always new and fresh.

    Art is a way to visualize the unknown, builtmon the works of others like science, and as valid way of discovery. But it did lose its way. Was not necessary for awhile, it is again. It bind humans together,or can break them against one another.

  21. I watch Extreme Home Makeover on tv alot. At the end when the new house is revealed, without fail, almost every single one of the recipients responds with an “OMG”. I find that rather curious as the show deals with people across a variety of ethnic and cultural backgrounds.

  22. Looks like it’s almost group hug time!..lol

    Just remember to play reasonably nice and not get too abusive or personal. It’s the value of religion and god being discussed, not each other.

    Perhaps we should form a prayer circle? ;-)

  23. Donald Frazell says:

    Actually, its arts dealing with god and religion, two separte things quite often. Sometimes not.

    Art has its role, as does science and all other of mans works. None more important, technolioogy, be it the iron plow, for agriculture, or the sword for war, and clothing and cooking, all have thier place. And all mut function well for the well being of the whole, of humanity.

    But to lcaimn that god is no relevant to man is jsut sily, and self aggrandizing. Whether you like it or not, as the gay mayor of Sf said and so got gay marriage banned in reaction. god as a concept is here to stay. What that concept is changes, adn msut change with everything else as we evolve, or we will have big problems. And do.

    Art must become focused on god again, whether through religion or the passion put into the painting, the feel one wants to evoke in the viewer. It can be of a Buddha or a still life, doesnt matter. Purpose does. And a little skill from desiring to learn ones craft fuly also.

    This art has failed for decades. That is irrefutable. It hasnt tried, too full of itself. Artistes.

  24. Janet, the title to the post could have also been “Everyday Language Needs Religion Too”

    I use “Jesus Christ” as a word to express my frustration at something.. or my awe at something. Depending on how frustrated or awe struck I am, I may add “F-ing” in the middle of the name.

    When I spent some time in Turkey I would use the word “Allah” too. You have to be more careful when using religious names from islam though as it doesnt take much to offend people.

  25. Donald Frazell says:

    People are confused on the swearing thing. The commandment is not to use the Lords name in vain. This is when Moss used teh name of YHWH, the god of Sinair, and the people of Jethro, not the Hebrews. They took that name for god from that point on, used El before, just god, not a real name.

    So you dont break a commandment by swearing any name, except perhas jesus, which is a Hellenic corruption of Yeshua, as Christ is Greek for Messiah. So not good to say that, but it is a judeo-christian-islamic sin to use the name of YHWH, or JeHoVaH, in vain. Muslims get a little ticked about muhammed too. And use Allah instead of YHWH, though Muhammed did follow the teaching fo the Hebrew writings, his wanting to be considered a Prophet, but ticked off at Jews when they refused him as not of Israel.

    Religion has evolved, and why I cant follow it literally, you cant. It has morphed and adapted and merged with other religions over and over, and had many bad translations. The main issue is this absurd infatuation with The Word. That has caused much grief in the world. But much of the messages of all three religions has been very good for man. To a point. We gotta keep evolving. We are still far from god.

    Lets get to work,

  26. Donald, I don’t have problem with us keeping god, but over time I would like to see us let go of a lot of dogma that is supposedly from god. If the big man did write all our religious texts, he sure does have a sense of humor and I look forward to meeting him someday.

    I cant think of a more interesting way to live than seeing god in life though. Give me a rainforest over a church/mosque/synagogue anyday. It’s in life that we find our maker, not in archaic texts written by petty men.

  27. Donald Frazell says:

    This is true, and why I repeatedly tell artisttes taht art should be as when entering Yosemite Valley in the spring, with dozens of waterfall, 3k’ cliffs, huge trees, a clear river, meadows, animals, life. This is art, of god. And man has continuously created, what the cathedrals of Europe are, as well as of man to show his own powre to create. God created us, why should be strive to be like that power? As long as we dont claim to BE that power, and many do in our age. And why art is weak now, lost its purpose.

    Artists can achieve gods presence through any means, and any motif they understand and can work THROUGH. To trigger thsoe emotions in the viewer, not this academic BS we got now.

    People are far too narrow minded, those who hate god just as much as those who profess to love him/her/it,whatever. Its really laziness, and self worship. Think about it, work on it, constructively critique onese actions and desires. Its really simple, in theory, Difficult in practice. It takes study and years of examing life, OUTSIDE of oneself. Doing that takes years it seems, some can easier than others, teh vast majority never being able to and so need simplified icons and ideas to follow. And that can be dangerous, but necessary to who we are. But we gotta keep evolving, not wiht flakey liberal spiritual centers and new age books on Oprahs list, but acceptin truth, whether it feels good or not. Adapt, or die.

  28. This is not a pretty picture. The cliche of artists as those who must buy into woo is saddening. Being willfully ignorant does nothing to create “good” art. Saying that art must be based on a concept of god (i.e. a false premise) does not hold water. I’m saying that believing in god(s), ghosts and magic isn’t necessary to create “good” art or writing.

    It can be claimed that man’s greatest artistic creations are gods and the temples dedicated to them, but our atavistic drive to believe in the supernatural is responsible for that.
    Whether or not you believe in religion or god(s) is irrelevant, there are many brilliant writers and painters who are non-theistic just as there are those who believe in gods other than the Abrahamic god of jews, Muslims and Christians who are wonderful artists.
    It is sad that we indoctrinate people into religion before the age they are able to reason maturely. It becomes so ingrained that we will immediately attack anyone who challenges our faith. So we reject anything that contradicts our beloved dogma, ignoring the cognitive dissonance between reason and faith. Rejecting empirical data – testable, repeatable data over a magical supernatural explanation is your right, but claiming that it makes you a better artist is without merit.
    Poor Donald has made wildly ridiculous claims but logic isn’t his strong suit. Reread his posts. It’s word salad, he doesn’t have a clue as to what most of the terms he used means. His motto: If you can’t dazzle ‘em with brilliance….

  29. The case against the offensive jesus at the baltic was dropped/dismissed by a judge.

  30. Donald Frazell says:

    Some are bitter, and of limited comprehension in all forms of communication. God is in all art, it does not have to be ABOUT a creator to be about god. Read Hemingway, his words drip with a divine presence, just not the ones of theology. You are stuck on this “Abrahamic god” because you failed at it. There is more to life than reason, thaht is a man made tool to get to empirical truth, no intelligent man mistakes it FOR truth. Just facts. it is up to us to make sense of them. If facts are all you know, and “believe’ in, a leap of faith there too, then that is all you are.

    Life is more than matter, it is energy. Yes, we are discovering more with string theory, dark matter, quantum physics and such. But the human psyche and “soul” cannot be measured in this way. An immortal soul is irrelevant, I see few humans worth immortatlity, but then, who am I to judge? Thats the point. We are not. YOU certainly are not, being bitter through a failed career in so many ways. Which leads to anger, then hate. You words drip of it as much as Shakespeares elevate life. Despite human failings.

    All art defines humanity, and our aspirations, the goals which we strive towards. That you have given up ‘hope’ is your problem and takes you out of the league of artist’s, and into the morrass of false frontin artistes.

    As Rushdie states, the wealth of imagery and history, the very foundations of our culture and the passions we have learned both as individuals and civilization are too strong to ignore as artists. It is only through self glorification that one would at least not use it for greater purposes, which again, is always what we refer to as god. This ideal has changed and modified constantly, much of it because of artists, more than theologists actually. And to abandon it is folly. Thats what Rushdie is saying.

    What Dion is saying is true also, that if we abandoned all religions, another topic, civilization would collapse into chaos. We are animals, and the carrot of heaven and stick of hell keep the vast majority in line through fear and greed. Just like puppies. Artists must see beyond this, and more importantly visulize this into our very being, through words, images, and song. All great artists have, and do.

    And god is as much in Cezannes landscapes, Morandis still lifes, Gauguins nudes as in the Bible. That you do not see or feel this, simply means you are not an artist, and among the vast majority of puppies. Not a Guard Dogg.

    Daddy Dogg from the LBC

  31. “After my Religion and Art rant earlier in the week I have been coming across articles on the topic everywhere I look.”

    What you are describing is “cognitive relevance”.
    It’s like when you buy a car in a color you’ve never owned before and suddenly you become aware of all the cars on the road with that colored paint. (They were always there, you just didn’t notice because it had no relevance.)
    There is a tendency to attach metaphysical significance when you experience cognitive relevance:
    “Someone or something is trying to tell me something… a coincidence? I think not!”,
    or solipsistic thinking:
    “I buy a blue car and now everyone else has to get one too!”

    As humans, we are pattern seekers. (See: Pareidolia). We screen information and notice what we feel is pertinent and discard much of what we see and hear as “noise” – irrelevant information.
    I’m not discounting memes and trends: (“People aren’t buying Hummers anymore.” “There is an upsurge in the number of red automobiles for 2007-2008.”), but the backlash against the ever-shrinking God-of-the-Gaps vs creativity and expression is an old one as is the Intelligent Design debate (Scopes “Monkey” Trial, anyone?).

    Many of these articles you cite are simply apologetics written by agnostics who fear that reality doesn’t measure up to Grand Illusion (or grand delusion) when it comes to prose, poetry, the visual arts and architecture. It’s just so much sophistry and fear mongering in a time when most cannot distinguish between facility/prowess from schlock ( The high price of conceptual art), and the need to sentimentalize a time when we could be comforted by a traditional belief in magic and the supernatural.

    I know this is futile -each of us will determine what is relevant for ourselves and just reject all other input as noise…

  32. “YOU certainly are not, being bitter through a failed career in so many ways. “

    Are you STILL flailing at a Straw Man Argument? I choose not to dignify your bullsh*t ad hominem attacks, Guard Dogg (sic).

    Actually, I love your rants. You’ve exhibited almost every form of logical fallacy, including circular arguments and tautology and even a half-assed version of “The Courtesan’s Reply”.

    I’ll use your posts as the ultimate example of poor logic skills and flagrant narcissism. My students will love it. Who knows, I may even use them in my next book.

  33. Donald Frazell says:

    Certainly hope it is not an art or writing class. Poor students, but separating fools from their money is the goal of every self proclaimed guru. Artists just do, and if paid, great, get to make more. Professional “artistes” have been the bane of art.

    Plus, your “style” is completely unimaginative, and devoid of anything BUT academic dogma. I hope it is a logic class, you could be usefull there, as you are lgoicial. But then, so was Hitler, once you bought into his basic premise. All logic starts with a believe in a premise, you cannot make life logical, its simply a devise humans have come up with to examine the physical world, and store knowledge, data actually. There is no intelligence in logic, just a system of breaking life into segments, as does science, when all is truly interconnected. To have intelligence is to see those connectionsn, and use the data retrieved by lower levels of human life, you know, teachers and self proclaimed scientific gurus. Like you.

    That is taught in basic logic and been proven in science repeatedly. Breakthroughs come when someone like Hawking and Einstein see that categories are not separate, and are manmade, not reality, and make the connections. life is not a straight line, not a orb weavers web, where points are connected by direct paths. It is a giant cobweb, as is our brains, with multiple ways to a point. And the voyage, which is art, brings constantly new and enlightening discoverise along the way.

    Poor students, just like at art schools, but as they say, a fool and his money is soon parted. whose taking yours? You are still caught in the details, and cannot see the forest for the tress. Artist create reflections of forests, so we may comprehend life, and god dwells there.

    Sorry you cant see it, you cant even understand what i am writing, a meer human. How you gonna comprehend the immensity of life? Humility is a start, try it sometime. Attacking what you dont understand, even when plainly before you, just means you need to find yet another field of endeavor, keep trying, you just might find one eventually.

    Anonymous. Not THATS weak. No respect son. A man stands by his convictions, but then, thats not taught in logic, now is it?

  34. Donald, are you drunk or just an idiot?
    Distortions, straw men, and incoherence are the sum total of your posts. That you would call anyone arrogant defines irony. Keep on blithering, I need the material; but you might want to consider: “when you find yourself in a hole…”

  35. Donald Frazell says:

    I certainly encourage you to show this discussion, in its ENTIRETY. Your editing it is almost a certaintly however, because you cannot stand up to cross examination.

    You more limited students may side with you, none will argue as you control their grade, that carrot and stick thing. And the more insightful will see some sense in what I write. I know plenty of REAL writers. Those who can do, thsoe who cant teach. Only in the sciences, thsoe who do on campus research, does that rule not aply. But that is a a very few colleges.

    universites are sterile environments, not meant for contact and knowledge of the real world, but a quiet safe, place for students to gather data and keep thier hormonal filled rage in some kind of check. They know nothing when they leave a campus with a degree, that only states one has achieved a certain level of information absorbtion, and have been trained to work in groups, like a puppy. True artists are completely independent, and so immune to dogma.

    For that is what you teach. Atheism is as much a leap of faith, in the nothingness of what we do not comprehend, as organized religions based on a god concept. Ideologies of left and right have been discredited, and are dead as far as true viability. Though they wil return, as they were all built as reactions to outside event, that wil reoccur.

    You have obviously tied your identity to it, and not to being a mature adult. As all real men have backbone, and do not hide behind Anonymous, that is fear. And real men know no fear, we accept life, and death, as it is. So your “theories” are built on sand, as character and purpose is all. That is what a man is. This you cannot know, as there is more in this world than can be dreamt of in your philosophies. We are no where near the “end” of knowledge, and you think you KNOW whats what?

    That is your sand. And why you refuse the possibility of there being more than can be measured. That is a personal matter, and a revelation of character, or lack thereof. Correct, my dear ANONYMOUS?

  36. certainly encourage you to show this discussion, in its ENTIRETY.
    No probelem. I’ve already linked this to several people and they think you’re a riot.
    (Although they are debating whether a mind altering substance or a disorder is to blame).

    My favorite response so far is “textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect”. This, of course, refers to your posts. Opinions of your photographs are immaterial and irrelevant. We are concerned with your “ideas”, specifically your ability to contradict yourself and your tendency to abuse and distort information from my posts.
    General consensus is you should seek professional help, sincerely .
    I’ve had a lovely time. Take care of yourself. Buh-bye!

  37. Donald Frazell says:

    Good bye anonymous, back to your tiny world of dogmas, as you are attracted to that which is easily explainable, which of course doesnt exist. You NEED to have answers, You NED to ahve validation. You NEED to nave life nice and tidy. There are other terms for that, psychologicl ones. We are all of limited knowledge, and see things how we want to see them, but some cant admit it. Artists must, you cant. Therefore you are no artist. As you stilted writing reflects. Everything is a reflection of truth,so be sure to post. Not just your limited cadre of like minded, limited minded folk. I will continue to live life OUT THERE, not academia. for the soft and weak. Those who cant take real life. Darn messy, that real life stuff.

    Enjoy yourself, though with that bitter attitude, I kinda doubt it.

    And stay out of artistic discussions, you really have no clue. Or talent.

    Donald Frazell

  38. Donald Frazell says:

    LOL!!! You guys are hilarious! You just love to categorize things you have no clue about. If anything, my skill IS in recognizing talent, been doing it for years. Been told I should teach many times, but like I said, thats for losers, those who can do. sterile fake environments give me the creeps. As are teachers.

    Just picked my adopted son up from the airport, an Annapolis grad, you know a REAL school, not like wherever you teach. Found him while coaching ball, and took him in off the streets. Like he has told me, I find diamonds in the rough. And so know cubic zirconia when I see it. Get it? Probably not, too deep.

    Bye children, back to your books.

    PS. Was always tested in the top 1% in math and reading, 138 IQ, but all that crap is YOUR testing methods, and really lack anykind of reality. Something I pursue daily. Its really not as scary as you fear. Embrace it, Embrace Change! It is time for a major change in society, outside of government, in a democracy, you get the government you deserve, and we have gotten it. Time to move on, and gorw up, that responsibility thing again. I know, its a pain, but really, its much better in the long run. Give it a try!

    Get over yourselves, and you just might start to enjoy life, instead of being so filled with hate. Fear does that.

    Art collegia delenda est

  39. Oh Gosh, Donald, drop the IQ test mark as defense mechanism. Just so you know, I beat you on that level.
    Just never confuse knowledge, moral values and intelligence.

    I’m Cedric from the Winkleman blog and I came here to find you. I want to know what you had to say there on the religion thread before your comment was banned.

    Let’s see what you had in mind,


  40. Donald Frazell says:

    Hey Ced, yeah, Eddie is kinda a wuss. i wa actually giving good advice, how those who are not hostile to gays but get anoyed at some of the antics the extremists do, that do backfire.

    I do consider IQs as BS, another academic tool for and by tools. Has little to do with real life, only good for how one remembers and can manipulate the system. That is a kind of intelligence, but far form the only kind, the mind cannot be mapped and rationalized. I only took the test as my son was claiming to be smarter than me, just like he is taller, and a better baller. He is a better baller, now, but not his first year in Annapolis starting as a frosh. And i had a higher IQ, gotta keep these young folks in line, showing us old folks some respect.

    The idiot who was on here spouting logic, was completely irrational in his hate toward religion. Even if you do not believe in god, I dont as far as the bibles accounts, how can you not see the value of religion in how Dion presents it .It keeps the masses in check, or chaos is the outcome. It is needed, whether true or not.

    His outburst about it only reveals deep insecurities, the very opposite of the precious logic he clings to so desperately.

    And the so called condition i have, always the last resort of thsoe who dont have real lives, is absurd. I was a talent scout running a travel middle school team, handed the kids off to those with shoe connections who had contact with colleges. Same wiht girlfriends, my last girl before I got married is aharvard lawyer, ran the Obama campaign in LA, but had to admonish her about her Fox TV appearance right afer the elction, cant attack the conservative, gotta build those Obama bridges, and take their fire away. Helping a young lady right now who has a f’d up ex-fiance after her, a very promising writer who is a doctorate student at Northwestern, and know screen writers, doctors, lawyers, and others. I am a damn good scout for talent, and burnish thier shine with my advice. They stay in contact becasue of this. And find art to be retarded also, smart women.

    Academics are very limited, only in the sciences are they productive and creative. Philosophy types are internalized idiots, my ex sister in law a language philosophy major very circular in thinking, as are these gents. Usually have mental issues, and need a blanket to cling too, paranoid schizophrenics and narcissists. Useless field, we outgrew them decades ago. Art took over philosophy and theology, this fool stuck in the past, and his own ego. Cant find his soul, so grabs onto something as real. His anger in his opening remarks reveals this. Men are easy to figure out, women so much more interesting.

    Anyway, religion needs to be discussed in art, the left abandoned it, so the right now controls the definition in our culture. But the left is too soft and self absorbed, cant admit to the possibility of somethng greater than itself. Weak.

    gotta run, stick around, need some good debates, Winkie cant take it.


  41. Donald Frazell says:

    And I really, Really, REALLY hope this fool links his “students” to this site, would love to hear their comments. But rather doubt it, he cant take reality. and certainly has no idea as to what art is.

    Bring it on, seminary boy!

  42. Hmm..I actually thought that art was a philosophical achievment. I think it was Aristotle that first described the conditions for art to exist. But in the sense that today people know artists but much less philosophers, I agree.


  43. Donald Frazell says:

    Philosophy msut be known, but as Aristotle was perhaps the first scientist also, his collections from around the world, especially from Alexanders “adventures” science has replaced much of philosophy, and art the rest.

    Look at what the last era of philosphers did, write novels. Neitzsche and Camus had to create battle grounds of ideas, histories, things, emotions, to play out the supposedly contradictory truths of life. But they are not contradictory, just our knowledge being not broad or deep enough, and our questions the wrong ones. We constantly upgrade our knowledge, through sciences, and arts creating a reflection of the world, one where we can see and feel it in aa whole new, fresh way, where our prejudices and biases can be put aside, and feel life more intensely. And why contemporary art is useless and vain, it does none of this, but glorifies the individual, its entertainment for the self professed “elite”.

    I was talking with my son about this last nite. He was looking at the Great Books my wifes parents left to her. They were both lawyers and preachers for the Nation of Islam, into it as a way for black America to find strength and purpose. They left after the Messenger died, in the mid 70s and a little known civil war split it and left it in ruins. Her father died and had two funerals. One for old Nation folks, some who had stalked them, and another for all his friends, and they were jews, christians, blacks, whites, asians, whoever he helped, and they all showed.

    Now as David was showing all the books of it I dont know, the chemistry and physics of Pascal and Newton, as well as the histories and Darwin I do know, all old dead white guys who were good, with some bad nineteenth century overrated writers. They had tried to turn him into a nuclear engineer, but going into medicine. I told him about the bozo who is so scared of god. And laughed about his worship of logic. It is a tool, not a goal, not a religion in itself, Mr Spock. It is a vry useful guideline to uncover physical truth, but it doesnt work in things of human conerns. You cant sit and philosophize away, one must have data, and you cant quantify human thoughts and desires.

    Art took over philosophy and theology with the post impressionists. They inquired into the nature of the physical world, but how it interacted in our minds, which are organic and not machines or fool proof, we are not logical beings, and it is not a thing in itself, it was created by us to help elimate mistakes in physical inquiries, thats it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Humans do not see truth directly, we can all view a scene and have different takes on it, this has been shown repeatedly with all the death row inmates released after DNA proved them innocent despite human identification. Logic doesnt work with human interractions and perceptions. Art comes into play here, show and revealing thesse contradictions which are just part of who we are. The point is to ask better and better questions, and this includes about god.

    But art has failed for almost fifty years now, it no longer asks questions, the miniscule amount of good films a year actually does better, Comedy is better at it now, but plays, writing, two dimensional and three dimensional art have failed, music too since the death of jazz in the 1970s. Maybe its time is over, maybe we just got lost in our materialistic desires, our quasi religious “spiritualities’ and self centered focus on ME. I am hoping this has just ended, and we can get back to discovering what is truly important, instead of frolicing in wasting the earths bounties. Diverted from reality. Decadent. Spoled. Soft. Weak.

    God must constantly be addressed, not angrily in either denial or forcing it down others throats, which atheists do also, theirs is a religion about them. Just as polemical as the religious fanatics. God is and always has been, part of humanity. What is it? That is arts field. Debating, creating, evolving, enquiring. What is god? Without the obsession with finding a final definitive form, but defining humanity, and our purpose. Our goals. Our needs. Us. And this involves god always. The Eternal. As we learn more about the physical world, this does not mean god is any less. But reveals patterns and rhythms of creation. NOT creation theory, but an order we must understand to be a part of. Art brings that into ones seneses, not just as data. But give meaning to each of our lives.

    Most are just too simplistic mindset to understand, and want simple answers. Logic boy among them just as much as catholics and muslims. Art can play it out in its own way, outside of language. If you can describe art in words, it aint art. And all contemporary art has its sales pitch, not much left after that. Art gets to us in ways beyond words, which are simply human created symbols, and not truth. Another avenue to truth. Thats it. It adds to and enriches our lifes. Or can. but hasnt.

    Time to get to work. Literally.

    Art collegia delenda est

  44. Donald, judging by the way you write, your mind meanders a little like a mannerist. And you are a defendant of abstraction (jazz lover) so it is no wonder that you rebuke the deceiving logics of conceptualism and post-conceptualism (the major art trends of the last 40 years, which you often criticize). Yet we live in an age of pluralism, where you are able as I write this to visit and enjoy the new show of paintings by Vincent Desiderio at Marlborough. I think they’re the contemporary equivalent to the sort of narratives you are looking for in visual arts. How can you pigeonhole all art at once when there is so much different stuff going on?

    +++why contemporary art is useless ++++and vain, it does none of +++this, but glorifies the +++individual, its entertainment +++for the self professed +++”elite”.

    Ben Vautier in the 60′s (Fluxus) would have responded to your claim that all arts always were about the glorification of the artist’s ego. It is always a request to attract attention and a pretense that it communicate things more important and in a better way than others. But you see, this is the sort of conceptual logic that you reprimand.

    +++Art comes into play here, show +++and revealing thesse +++contradictions.

    Well, art is aesthetics and purposes. What you mean is you want less of the explainable purpose and more of the mysteries of sensual explorations. It’s ok. Art can do both. It’s like a switch
    which you can put on one side or the other or in between.

    +++I told him about the bozo who ++is so scared of god.

    I have no idea what or who you are talking about.

    +++it (art) no longer asks ++++questions.

    It does. You’re probaby just not interested in the types of question it asks.
    In fact, an artwork is always asking “am I significant?”. The answer depends
    on the purpose. If an artwork reaches its purpose than it is successful, whatever is that
    purpose. Even if it is to entertain.

    ++++If you can describe art in ++++words, it aint art.

    You’re into mannerism and abstraction.
    I love mannerism and I think as an artist I’m leaning toward that.
    But I also like some of your “non-art” that can be described.
    Do you enjoy the recent Golden Calf by Damien Hirst?
    Because as a major work of post-conceptualism (a nail
    in the coffin if you ask me), it is saying exactly what you say.
    That art of today has lost its spiritual value at the expense of
    the market. So you actually hate a type of art that aims to
    promote similar ideas as you do. The difference is Hirst is
    a pessimist. Or maybe that’s not really a difference.

    Would you accept the possibility that art be oxymoronic to God or
    why not? Is God the Universe or something exterior to it?
    There are many definitions of what God could be
    You seem to define it as being “Humanity and Nature”.
    Can art be against Humanity And Nature (propension
    of the ego, anti-stoic, etc..)? What do you think of islamists
    who reject representation (in art), because that isn’t godly?

    I don’t think all art HAS to aim at the Universal. It’s ok if something is anecdotal, unimportant, “just-between-you-and-me” art. You
    sound like you want every art piece to insist on the sublime, the great communal cause, the eternal battle of Good against Evil, an extra panel in an
    everlasting piece about the Last Judgment, etc.. You are angry because some objects came up in art to say “hey, dude, relax, I’m just an object”. But
    there is always a sous-entente about God in every artwork. This is the responsability of the viewer to go and get it. I don’t think this issue is
    about the artist. It is about your interpretation.

    Cedric C

    PS: ok I guess bozo refers to this thread which involves the word logic numerous times. Haven’t read it.

  45. Donald frazell says:

    Sorry you are definitely wrong about me being a mannerist, Cezannist modern straight througha dn through, Charlie Parker adn Coltrane far more than posers about individual self worth. Thats up to god, not us.

    Art is never about I. Neer about the artists feelings, his personal life. Name one great artist who did, and plesee, none of this post modern BS. Read my article Dion posted hre in July, Imperial Clothing, that explains how art has become strictly a commodity in America, and therfore the world as we have dominated it n the post war era. Yes, WWII, not the cold war conflicts or oil wars. Look at my work on myartspace.com under Donald Frazell. Just complete a tryptic on a religious theme i need to photograph and put up, but is truly about personal accountability, responsbility and purpose.

    Read this entire thread first, tehn I will answer whatever questions you have left, some should be answered there, whether ou agree or not is certainly up to you, I am not dogmatists, but want people to think adn feel things they ahve either denied or neglected for decades. yet hae always been the recurring main theme in human crreativity, of all kinds. The last one too.

    Its very simple I do it all the time, having many art books I have gotten over the years in used book stores and bargain bins, can get alot, from throught human history.place them before you, not jsut one kind, jewelry, architecture, paintng, sculpture, real music not this pop entertainment crap, but good european musics, they suck now, and jazz through its demisse in the 1970s.

    Layout thousands of years of human purpose, strivings, public art mostly, as almost all that exist now were, til the nineteenth century, royal art mostly for public consumption and of course religious art, of all kinds from Egypt and minoans through out the world. All are about defining that people, who they were, their goals adn ambitions, thier ideals adn political dominance, and God. What is eternal, What gives purpose, what unifies those who have been defined.

    Now with Modernism taht is everyone, the entire planet, not jsut one culture, but human culture. We ad to what hs come before, all moderns did, even though many thought them radical adn revolutionary, they were livng thier times, and adding our constantly evolving knowledge, of god as well, onto the foundations of the past. And we are all teh children of history, whether in denial like the bozo or not. Recognizing this actualy frees one form belng a slave to it, and seeing what is true adn eternal, not idiosycratic adn individual. for it is and always has been about We, Us, being apart of the Universe, even on a small scale. Bonnards colors reeked of god, even while taking a bath. The energy and life that eminates from Within the painting, not the isolated recessive lifeless musings of self idolatry in post modernism.

    I will try to answer your questions later, got my son in town, gotta run. A Navy officer Annapolis grad, who is now to take medicine. His thoughts are more adn more about the future, abut life, as he grows up adn matures, 24 is still a young adult, not yet fully formed. He knows this. Dumbass artistes think they got great ideas in college, adn ocntnue to do teh same daubles forevere, limited in outlook and purpose, it being about career, not art. See your boy Hirst, the epitome of decadence.

    Donald Frazell
    Imperial Clothing, google me.

    have a productive weekend, Go Navy! kick Notre Dame ass!
    Competition is the spice of life, and motivates, art could use some of it, there is absolutely NO debate within art, no competition, all PC BS. The art schools have successfuly brainwashed. Winkleboy cant take it.

    Art collegia delenda est

  46. Donald Frazell says:

    By teh way, Iconoclasm is a recurring them throughout religious history. Muhammed did becasue his clan was in charge of the Kabaah. It was filled with various idols, which he preached about cleansing out, and when he came back in victory from his exile to Medina, thats exactly what he did. He said not more graven images, no taking away from worshipping any but god himself, Allah.

    The Shiites however read this differently, they are allowed to create images of animal and human life, jsut not Muhammed as an idol to be worshipped and therofore taking away form God, muhammed only lcaimed to be the last messenger and prophet, adn did not want a cult of his own. Sunnies simply ban all forms of life being represented.

    The Iconoclasts of the 10the century Byzantine Empire took voer, adn trashed msot of the previous churches, covering images of Jesus and any representation of God, saints or humanity. The Reformation also rid churches of any possible idolization, including the crucifix and what they viewed as pagan images, Mother Mary adn teh saints, they preached aperson direct link to god, not to have any intercessoaries. But did not ban al human and animal imagery as did the Iconoclasts and Sunni.

    Again, all true art comes down to god and defining who we are, not the individuals desires, but the wholes needs. Through whatever form, Michelangelos God creating tehe sun adn moon, to the whores of Demoiselles d’Avignon. he took away teh allegroy, all literary themes were purged from Modernism, adn focuses on teh relationships of forms, lines, colors, masses of structured motifs, which are always just a departure point, not the meaning itself. Art must be layerd, with multiple meanings and forms, ideas and interlacing interconnecting yet separate lines, colors sturcture, that all gives life to the whole, the subject o more important than the so called background. All is one. What could possibly be more spiritual?

    A believe in any form of organized religion is not necessary to belief in some form of god, that which passes all understanding. It is humility, something we now lack, and we are living the result of our arrogance. We are limited creatures, who delight in discovering our universe. Thinking we are masteres of it, and others, is the ultimate sin. We are part of the whole. And one cannot serparate one part of us as art. It must be all forms of human knowledge, intellectual, physical, emotional spritaul. And one is boring and not life. But a self satisfying worship of ones ow limited outlook and capabilities. Always look for more. There always will be more, and that striving is what art is. Life.

    This takes study, discipline, constructive self criticism, passion, physicality, love. And without sacrifice, thre is no lover. It is not about me, but finding us.A never ending task we are but one link in the chain of. That should be enough, but we are , delusional, and self glorifying. The enemies of Art.They ahve won the field, but not victroious, it is time for art to return, WE need it. Not the self worship of contemporary art.

    Art collegia delenda est

  47. +++Name one great artist who did

    Take Michelangelo’s Sixtine Chapel. Is this work an homage
    to God or an affirmation of the ego of the artist? Or both?
    Is Michelangelo saying: “I can represent God better than you, and
    this art is so good it is worth to fill the walls of the Vatican.” Do you understand what I’m saying? Michelangelo also had a reputation
    and career to defend. The religious monks of medieveal era were different but they still had the pride of their monastery.

    I don’t think art is all about ego, but perhaps 50 per cent of
    it. You say contemporary artists use stupid pretexts to make
    art because they are only concerned about themselves. I think this
    always have been, and that you are barking at the wrong tree.
    If you want a complete erase of the ego, you are better to try
    philosophy or science. Besides, it is presomptuous for an artist
    to think they are going to make a work representing what everybody
    else in the world think. That is what you are asking of artists: to become pretentious fucks. To make art that are the great mirrors of their era and hanky-panky know-hows about God and how the world is made. Frankly I think you read way too much into a Monet. Monet would have never argued “I am expressing the lights of God!”. Would he? I don’t think he was that pretentious (Maybe..). I can as likely describe to you why a
    Jeff Koons is sublime (I’m serious). This is about interpretation. You seem
    to exaggerate the genius of the artists you admire. Monet was great but like
    many artists he was redundant. In fact maybe he was the first conceptualist. “I’m gonna make 20 paintings of the same subject under different light
    conditions”. That’s conceptual. Totally Po-mo.

    ++++what unifies those who have ++been defined.

    I’m interested also in what desunify them. I’m more
    interested in what differentiate people than common grounds,
    which are often boring.

    ++++Bonnards colors reeked of god, ++++even while taking a bath

    So, you’re telling me that a Bonnard work about interior house decorum reeks of sublime?

    ++++What could possibly be more ++spiritual?

    Well…Some would argue that minimalism is the art nearest to purity (aka God).
    I think many performance artists are ritualistic and devoid of materialism.
    I don’t think anyone could argue that Linda Montano has not been obsessed by hindouism.

    ++++And without sacrifice, thre is +++no lover.

    Are you sure you don’t suffer from Asperger or some light
    form of OCD? You are very talkative but keep repeating the
    same sentances in a thousand different ways. I’m serious.
    Personally I’ve rarely seen historical instances where people
    did unify without things going wrong or way too weird.
    Jim Jones was the paroxysm of that, but you see it in every
    mass movements: people who think differently get massacred
    (at least intellectually). The best thing one can do about expressing “the god” you are talking about, which is universalism, is simply
    to be yourself. And no one is going to allow being themselves with you around dictating them just how wrongly they think and behave.

    You seem to love to infantilize the youth, but many of the great art masterpieces were done
    when artists were under 24. Of course you love Cezanne which is a fine example of the contrary,
    but if you keep generalizing the way you do you will not be taken seriously, not even by the people
    you admire. Because there is easy-throwaway thinking and then there is big common sense. By putting
    masses of people worlwide in a same bag, you are not making sense.

    Cedric C

  48. Donald Frazell says:

    You ask typical bad art school questions, not ones taht relate to lfie as it is adn always ahs been, but some contemporary spin for consumption by its market. The Michelangelo is not an either or question, adn totally off base, as are almost all of teh”questions” raised by teh academies, which are jsut as decadent as tthose in teh late 19th century. I dont care about p[issing them off, tehy need to bey atacked, F this PC BS. Its acover, there is absolutely NO debate within the art community, not like at the turn of the century when philosophy, was taken over by art, and so poltics took side with different ideas and approaches that they felt represented their interests. The good artists were not politicized themselves, and when they were, lessend their work, as Picassos was after he became a Communist.

    While I dont think the lives of artists are really important, works need to stand on thier own. this puttingof words adn sentiments to fit the contemporary need to validate its tupidites is quite anniying, adn destructive to art. Go back and read about Michelangelo, adn not form some recent absurdist diatribe. go back to his arguments and the history of his time, its all there. The distortions are strickly for contemporary consumption. netiehr of your hypothesis are valid. Nor many of the following.

    I will destroy later, getting my son off back to his military duty in Texas, and my wifes birthday. 29 again. It may look like I am robbing the cradle, but she is only a couple of adminsitrations younger than me, not a coupla generations younger than me like Decadent folk do. off to Universal studios, got my doctor sis in law here, talked with my Doctor to be son, very good weekend. Except for all the ash covering our cars after the last few days of wildfires. Its as dry as Australia here.

    Art collegia delenda est

  49. Donald Frazell says:

    Really, you dont understand art at al, you dont feel it. If you truly believe that Bonnards works are about interior decorum, adn not god, then you just dont get it, finda new field. Like interior decorum. Thats absurd, and why art is irrelevant now to humanity, mno one cares outside of the artiste world. No one.

    And if you are bored, thats your issue. Only the boring are bored, thre is plenty to do in this world, in tiny ways and huge ways, one can contribute, from gardeniong to being President, and everything in betwen, that is what art is about. You want to be amused, to be a voyeur, not participate in life.

    Art is not entertainment, or it didnt used to be. I dont care if people do, but thsoe folks have a strangle hold on art now, adn will NOT allow anything different in, especially anything relevant. Anything that can usurp its position of business and control.

    This crap is all the same, becasue it all comes form teh same indifference. Attitude and purpose is everything, one ca find humanity adn god in anythng, but purpose wil drive one towards visualizing it. If its all about expressing oneselve, then it bcomes all simpleminded absurdities, amusing perhaps, but quite irrelevant. No one person has much to say, unless they incorporate and build what has come before. Add to what we know as a world civilization. But art students are very limted, they know little if anything, to busy “expressing” whining, themsevls. Who cares? No adult does. And why art is shunned by msot of the world now, no one argues, no one fights ofr positions, there are none. Its a formles blob of blank eyed children. We need to grow up.

    If all you see in at is the motif, adn not what the artist can bring out in it, theres nothing I can teach you. You are only looking ointpo mirrors to see yourself, art is about getting out of oneself, and becoming part of the all. Always has been, always will be. Our decadent time will soon be behind us, i am their enemy, I declared war on contemporary art long ago, why care aobut the view points of spoiled children? I have a life adn will continue to do what I do whether I find market succes or not, I can take care of myself and my family. Thats what adults do.

    Art collegia delenda est.

  50. Tautology

  51. Donald Frazell says:

    People who love to categorize are simpleminded themsevls, life is conplicateed, yet simple if you revel in its diversity, and see what connects us all. And those who divide us. Academic weirdos who love to Think they knowitall, when they are from sterilized enovorments, it is just yourselves you are displaying.

    self absorbed arrogance. myopia. decadence. the list goes on, we dont have to be on them, we but ourselves into cateories by our desires and actions. People see what they want to see. which is why art is necessary, it reflects who we are so we can approach it, and feel it, and move towards it. Never possess it.

    you create your own box.

    Art collegia delenda est

    Art collegia delenda est.

  52. ++++The Michelangelo is not an ++++either or question,

    Yes, that was my point: 50 per cent of art always have been about ego, while the other half is the purpose and means to reach it. There is NO Either Or for Michelangelo as much as for contemporary artists.

    ++++netiehr of your hypothesis are +++valid.

    You’re not listening to me.

    ++++Really, you dont understand +++art at al

    Didn’t you say that it was the greatest thing when art kept its mysteries? I”m in fact totally opened to the idea that interior decorum might be about God, the same way that a chair in Wavelenght (Michael Snow) might be. You’re just not opened to the idea that iterior decorum might be a cool thing of its own.

    ++++thre is plenty to do in this ++++world

    Yes, plenty of different things. That’s what I’m saying. I like that they are tons of different art, even art that can piss you off or me. I think you’re a closet totalitarian.

    ++++Art is not entertainment

    It can be entertainment. It’s just one of its many powers. It can be something entirely different too. Something that rejects entertainment. Something ritualistic. Art is more free than you’re letting it out to be.

    ++++Attitude and purpose is ++++everything.

    Tst, tst, tst, tst, tst. I said: purpose is 50 percent of the work, and this purpose can be quasi-erased when it is defined by means or aesthetic explorarations. There are still plenty of artists doing that (abstraction is not dead). You can’t put all artists in one bag because they are doing very opposite things one another.

    ++++getting out of oneself, and +++becoming part of the all.

    You’re a believer in the universal field. The last couple David Lynch films were about that and they were excellent. But not every artwork has to be like a Hieronymous Bortsch.

    ++++i am their enemy, I declared +++war on contemporary art long ago.

    You should befriend Donald Kuspit (what is it with those Donalds?).
    They are.some people which I’d more gladly having them consider me
    enemy than friend, that’s for sure.

    Cedric C

  53. Donald Frazell says:

    Some of those things, yes, may be interesting, they just arent art. By opening a word to any definition, you have watered down the word into meaninglessness.

    Contemporary art is meaningless, perhaps reflecting the lives of those in it, lost, adrift, clueless. But most of the world is not, and so doesnt care about art as it is now, after being hijacked and maniupulated to serve the desires of the rich, which is who art is now for. Even when the rich bankrolled it in the past, it was for public consumption, and had to enthrall the masses, as much as the elite.

    The splitting of “art” forms has led to a splintering of civilization. Finding what unifies us and binds us IS arts function, god the goal. Something that can never be reached, but motivates us on, and brings power and passion.

    You are not stating art, but entertainment, which is the opposite. Art allows the individual to merge into the universe, find meaning, by being a part of the whole, losing oneself where personal value has no meaning. The artist takes his skill to the utmost level, not for his own succses, flaunting his abilities and preciosity, but allowing us to find meaning by being with the Universe. God.

    Entertainment takes the opposite approach, for the opposite goal. It raises the individual up, worships him, whether a star of rock, preaching, or film, and thereby his masses of follower can identify with the fractionalized idol of art,politics or rap, and derive personal power from it. Fantasizing one is different than others, and so greater, hipper, little gods in oneself over lesser beings, who dont follow that personal god. Entertaiment is a drug, or an be used as such for those who are weak of mind, body or spirit. Most of the rest of us use entertainment as relaxation, to temporarily rid onself of the cares of the world, and be an individual.

    This is fine, everything has its time and place. However, art has been replaced by entertainment, so we lack it now. We need it to be as one, build, create, unify, find purpose and joined passion. Just as soft jazz is not jazz, contemporary art is not art, not as it always has been, and takes away from its power and pupose, by worhsipping the individual. Which is nothing, we gain by binding, not as a faceless mob, but contributing how we can, and so helping humanity prosper. Not being leeches, drawing away from its lifeforce, which has happened in our economy by those who created the tiny inbred “artworld” as it is, the rich who use this “art”, to justify their greed and decadence.

    Art now is only for them, and so 99% of the world doesn give a shit. As they shouldnt. And so, art is dead, or been laying low ready to return, for what is will not let it come out, it fears it. As it knows it will lay it low, to simmer in anger, till it can come again in another gilded age. For in those times, art crumbles as man places himself over all. Arrogance, Decadence, And so sets himself up for a fall. Yes, contemporary art reflected life, but only of those tiny few, in number and soul, who now are crumbling. Time for art to return. It IS needed. Now.

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